Note here that "faster" here really means more speed and not an increase in the volume of data transferred : The light go through the air hollow-core so can go at near "c" (the speed of light in vacuum) speed, instead of being constrained to "speed of light in glass which is only "2/3 c". This allows reduce latency for long distance communication.
On the other hand, it is only 33% - and that is an upper bound.
Getting data to literally the other side of the globe currently takes about 100 milliseconds. How many truly novel applications open up by that latency dropping to 66ms?
For short-distance stuff the latency is already low enough to be practically realtime. For long-distance stuff we're already fast enough for human-level applications (like video chat), but it's not dropping enough for computer-level applications (like synchronous database replication).
I'm sure some HFT traders are going to make an absolute fortune, but I doubt it'll have a huge impact for most other people.
I made my master thesis on real-time, with a chapter where I experimented with different levels of jitter and latency.
Jitter is the consistency of the latency, is it like a locked 66ms or sometimes does it go to 200ms. Jitter is more impactful than latency for a wide range of applications, from gaming to music and video call. Having a lower latency allows for lower jitter, or less jitter while keeping the same latency.
Today’s discovery is huge imo.
What this would do is increase the radius of where you can do some latency constrained thing. If your latency budget is 20ms, you could now do that over a bigger areas.
Mind-boggling logic, for example any existing roundtrip-heavy application (such as CIFS) would gain visibly and immensely because that latency is multiplicative
I generally agree with you, but! Video or audio calls between EU and the US still have a much higher chance of speaking up at the same time and it’s due to lag. If the latency is decreased by 33% it might be a game changer.
online music playing is HEAVILY latency sensitive. (for instance an online jazz session)
then you have online video games. increasing the area where you can get good connections increase quadratically (or more, if we hit step function = big city get in range) the viability of niche multiplayer video games and it is thus a boost to creativity.
there are probably many more niches... (need to think of reachable area, quadratic, instead of 1-to-1 link linear)
I've often wondered if for HFT or similar it might be worth pointing a particle accelerator at the floor and going for direct-line transit times. I'm fairly sure that this is theoretically possible, but no idea if the engineering challenge is beyond reach for use as a communication link.
If your signal is "transparent" enough go through so much rock and iron without being absorbed (like neutrinos), you'll have a hard time capturing it on the receiver side.
Well, OPERA was 700ish km, but had Cern at one end. If one has this as the sole goal and wanted to do it real-time over 12,000km is it "engineering-possible" vs "theoretically-possible" ? My guess is that it depends how much money stands to be made ;)
> I'm sure some HFT traders are going to make an absolute fortune, but I doubt it'll have a huge impact for most other people.
They’ve been using hollow core fiber (and funding research into it) for nearly a decade. I know it goes back further than the 2017 spinoff mentioned in the article, but https://optics.org/news/11/9/52 talks about it a bit.
There's a lot of need for communication still. In US, futures trade mostly in Chicago, but equities in New York, for example. In Europe things trade all over the place.
Microwave is only feasible over medium distances - can't do it over the ocean, as it requires LoS. Also IIRC, microwave bandwidth is considerably lower than fibre, and sometimes it matters.
You still need to traverse physical segments in the wireless path: think receiving dish to the next transmitting dish, the end of the path to get from the trading systems onto the roof and into to the first dish, etc. Every nanosecond counts.
It's true, but for most cases, the volume of a fiber is not the problem anyway. Latency is a problem most of us somehow bump into every day, while most fibers in the ground are nowhere near what you can push out of DWDM (e.g., off-the-shelf equipment will easily allow you to run 20x100Gbit over a single fibre, but many of them only carry a single 10Gbit or even 1Gbit link).
Trans-continental is different, because you'll need amplifiers. Many, many amplifiers in a row. And those generally work well only in a fairly limited band. But unless you're doing submarine, bandwidth is almost never the problem.
To make things worse, a lot of existing medium-haul fiber links are actually twice as long as you'd expect, due to the desire to cancel out dispersion; you first run the fiber e.g. 10km from place to place, and then run it through a large 10km spool (of a slightly different type of fiber) in the datacenter to cancel out the dispersion. This is slowly going away, but only slowly.
AFAIK yes, but if that's your goal, a far easier solution is to just use transmission standards that don't care about dispersion (coherent detection). E.g., all 100gig transmission already does not care about it.
Thanks for your precision. Off-topic: It's true that "faster Internet" means "bigger Internet" in common language, just like in photography "faster lens" means "lens with more light gathering capability". I wonder if there's other field where "faster" is misused.
Even if directly it isn't technically right to say it's faster, but with it's applications built upon such technology it manifests in these tasks being done faster. Makes sense.
And the time for the lambo and the tractor will depend on the round trips each will have to do, so it depends on the medium.
For submarine cables there are two things here. The first is lower attenuation which allows for fewer amplifiers along the route making it overall cheaper. The second is lower latency. There have been cases where high frequency trading people went wireless to get lower latency because of the higher propagation speed of EM-waves in air. For really long distances you can go theoretically use satellite links to get lower latency than a submarine cable even if the total distance increases.
Someday, someone is finally going to work out how to do comms with neutrinos (which can pass directly through the Earth and come out the other side) and make so much money...
"There has not been a significant improvement in the minimum attenuation—a measure of the loss of optical power per kilometer traveled—of optical fibers in around 40 years...
"The new design maintains low losses of around 0.2 dB/km over a 66 THz bandwidth and boasts 45% faster transmission speeds...
"The new fiber is a kind of nested antiresonant nodeless hollow core fiber (DNANF) with a core of air surrounded by a meticulously engineered glass microstructure.
"The team believes that further research can reduce losses even more, possibly down to 0.01 dB/km, and also help to tune the fiber for low-loss operation at different wavelengths. Even the losses achieved, however, open up the potential for longer unamplified spans in undersea and terrestrial cables and high-power laser delivery and sensing applications, among others."
> "The new design maintains low losses of around 0.2 dB/km over a 66 THz bandwidth and boasts 45% faster transmission speeds...
0.2 dB/km is already a pretty common loss ratio, though. It's true that you won't get that over the entire 1310–1550nm range (the ~35 THz range commonly in use), but you generally can't use all of that for long-haul links anyway due to the way repeaters work.
More interestingly, they promise 0.06 dB/km or so in the most relevant bands. If they can keep that up, it would mean less need for amplifiers, which is a Good Thing(TM).
This could be a big deal for multiplayer gaming. Right now there is enough margin in splitting east/west regions in latency sensitive games. With HCF, the argument for talking to one central region starts to prevail. For a game like counter strike with client-server, you don't actually need to go coast to coast. The server is the authority. If everyone can talk to Dallas or Ohio in <50ms they're probably going to have an OK time.
I really didn't see this coming. After 40 years of fibre I just thought we should roll this out across the globe as the solution to every home and we had data transmission solved and likely wouldn't need an upgrade until we found something substantially better, maybe quantum entanglement communication. Turns out it was improvable and now the insane amounts of fibre we have already deployed is now obsolete.
The currently installed fibre cables work just as well as they did a year ago. Calling them obsolete is a bit of stretch.
Besides, I think most homes are not even close to using the full capability of what fibre can offer nor do a lot of people need that extra bit of speed to browse Instagram/Facebook/YouTube/Whatever else.
An old computer and processor work just as well as they did when made but they are still obsolete because something better has been released. This does make all the fibre obsolete, doesn't make it useless but the replacement will reduce latency.
You probbaly need a specialised crew to do this and as such such fiber won't be installed in your own neighbourhood for your Fiber-to-the-Home connection anytime soon I guess. But, maybe in a few decades it will.
When such technology becomes practical for the large telco's it will be implemented soon as this saves on attenuation equipment.
Note here that "faster" here really means more speed and not an increase in the volume of data transferred : The light go through the air hollow-core so can go at near "c" (the speed of light in vacuum) speed, instead of being constrained to "speed of light in glass which is only "2/3 c". This allows reduce latency for long distance communication.
https://spie.org/news/photonics-focus/julyaug-2022/speeding-...
This is actually much more important than the volume of data transferred. Having 33% lower latencies across the globe would be huge.
On the other hand, it is only 33% - and that is an upper bound.
Getting data to literally the other side of the globe currently takes about 100 milliseconds. How many truly novel applications open up by that latency dropping to 66ms?
For short-distance stuff the latency is already low enough to be practically realtime. For long-distance stuff we're already fast enough for human-level applications (like video chat), but it's not dropping enough for computer-level applications (like synchronous database replication).
I'm sure some HFT traders are going to make an absolute fortune, but I doubt it'll have a huge impact for most other people.
I made my master thesis on real-time, with a chapter where I experimented with different levels of jitter and latency. Jitter is the consistency of the latency, is it like a locked 66ms or sometimes does it go to 200ms. Jitter is more impactful than latency for a wide range of applications, from gaming to music and video call. Having a lower latency allows for lower jitter, or less jitter while keeping the same latency. Today’s discovery is huge imo.
Doesn't jitter come from the switches and routers along the path? I have a hard time seeing a fibre having significant jitter.
What this would do is increase the radius of where you can do some latency constrained thing. If your latency budget is 20ms, you could now do that over a bigger areas.
Mind-boggling logic, for example any existing roundtrip-heavy application (such as CIFS) would gain visibly and immensely because that latency is multiplicative
I generally agree with you, but! Video or audio calls between EU and the US still have a much higher chance of speaking up at the same time and it’s due to lag. If the latency is decreased by 33% it might be a game changer.
online music playing is HEAVILY latency sensitive. (for instance an online jazz session)
then you have online video games. increasing the area where you can get good connections increase quadratically (or more, if we hit step function = big city get in range) the viability of niche multiplayer video games and it is thus a boost to creativity.
there are probably many more niches... (need to think of reachable area, quadratic, instead of 1-to-1 link linear)
> and that is an upper bound
I've often wondered if for HFT or similar it might be worth pointing a particle accelerator at the floor and going for direct-line transit times. I'm fairly sure that this is theoretically possible, but no idea if the engineering challenge is beyond reach for use as a communication link.
If your signal is "transparent" enough go through so much rock and iron without being absorbed (like neutrinos), you'll have a hard time capturing it on the receiver side.
Well, OPERA was 700ish km, but had Cern at one end. If one has this as the sole goal and wanted to do it real-time over 12,000km is it "engineering-possible" vs "theoretically-possible" ? My guess is that it depends how much money stands to be made ;)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OPERA_experiment
> I'm sure some HFT traders are going to make an absolute fortune, but I doubt it'll have a huge impact for most other people.
They’ve been using hollow core fiber (and funding research into it) for nearly a decade. I know it goes back further than the 2017 spinoff mentioned in the article, but https://optics.org/news/11/9/52 talks about it a bit.
HFT traders probably won't make any extra money unless they deploy this first to their dedicated international links.
Almost all of them deploy their strategies within exchange colo's already
There's a lot of need for communication still. In US, futures trade mostly in Chicago, but equities in New York, for example. In Europe things trade all over the place.
HFT uses microwaves for anything over distance. Unless this beats microwave latency, this doesn’t do anything for them fwiw
Microwave is only feasible over medium distances - can't do it over the ocean, as it requires LoS. Also IIRC, microwave bandwidth is considerably lower than fibre, and sometimes it matters.
You still need to traverse physical segments in the wireless path: think receiving dish to the next transmitting dish, the end of the path to get from the trading systems onto the roof and into to the first dish, etc. Every nanosecond counts.
Great for gamers
It's true, but for most cases, the volume of a fiber is not the problem anyway. Latency is a problem most of us somehow bump into every day, while most fibers in the ground are nowhere near what you can push out of DWDM (e.g., off-the-shelf equipment will easily allow you to run 20x100Gbit over a single fibre, but many of them only carry a single 10Gbit or even 1Gbit link).
Trans-continental is different, because you'll need amplifiers. Many, many amplifiers in a row. And those generally work well only in a fairly limited band. But unless you're doing submarine, bandwidth is almost never the problem.
To make things worse, a lot of existing medium-haul fiber links are actually twice as long as you'd expect, due to the desire to cancel out dispersion; you first run the fiber e.g. 10km from place to place, and then run it through a large 10km spool (of a slightly different type of fiber) in the datacenter to cancel out the dispersion. This is slowly going away, but only slowly.
does using hollow core means you can do away with dispersion compensation?
AFAIK yes, but if that's your goal, a far easier solution is to just use transmission standards that don't care about dispersion (coherent detection). E.g., all 100gig transmission already does not care about it.
Sounds like it was something like CML for >200km runs. =3
Thanks for your precision. Off-topic: It's true that "faster Internet" means "bigger Internet" in common language, just like in photography "faster lens" means "lens with more light gathering capability". I wonder if there's other field where "faster" is misused.
Higher bandwidth means less time to transmit a given packet. Just like more light gathering in a lens allows faster shutter speeds.
If you had to move 100 tons of packages, which is going to be faster - a Lamborghini going 200 mph, or a tractor/trailer going 50mph?
If you’re trying to set a speed record and don’t care about bringing anything along, which is faster?
Neither meaning is necessarily wrong.
Even if directly it isn't technically right to say it's faster, but with it's applications built upon such technology it manifests in these tasks being done faster. Makes sense.
And the time for the lambo and the tractor will depend on the round trips each will have to do, so it depends on the medium.
So submarine cables were limited to 0.67c and now aren’t? Can this really work?
For submarine cables there are two things here. The first is lower attenuation which allows for fewer amplifiers along the route making it overall cheaper. The second is lower latency. There have been cases where high frequency trading people went wireless to get lower latency because of the higher propagation speed of EM-waves in air. For really long distances you can go theoretically use satellite links to get lower latency than a submarine cable even if the total distance increases.
Someday, someone is finally going to work out how to do comms with neutrinos (which can pass directly through the Earth and come out the other side) and make so much money...
> So submarine cables were limited to 0.67c and now aren’t?
I think it’s more like in the future they might not be. It’s anyone’s guess how mass production and deployment of this might look.
Interesting quotes from the article:
"There has not been a significant improvement in the minimum attenuation—a measure of the loss of optical power per kilometer traveled—of optical fibers in around 40 years...
"The new design maintains low losses of around 0.2 dB/km over a 66 THz bandwidth and boasts 45% faster transmission speeds...
"The new fiber is a kind of nested antiresonant nodeless hollow core fiber (DNANF) with a core of air surrounded by a meticulously engineered glass microstructure.
"The team believes that further research can reduce losses even more, possibly down to 0.01 dB/km, and also help to tune the fiber for low-loss operation at different wavelengths. Even the losses achieved, however, open up the potential for longer unamplified spans in undersea and terrestrial cables and high-power laser delivery and sensing applications, among others."
> "The new design maintains low losses of around 0.2 dB/km over a 66 THz bandwidth and boasts 45% faster transmission speeds...
0.2 dB/km is already a pretty common loss ratio, though. It's true that you won't get that over the entire 1310–1550nm range (the ~35 THz range commonly in use), but you generally can't use all of that for long-haul links anyway due to the way repeaters work.
More interestingly, they promise 0.06 dB/km or so in the most relevant bands. If they can keep that up, it would mean less need for amplifiers, which is a Good Thing(TM).
This could be a big deal for multiplayer gaming. Right now there is enough margin in splitting east/west regions in latency sensitive games. With HCF, the argument for talking to one central region starts to prevail. For a game like counter strike with client-server, you don't actually need to go coast to coast. The server is the authority. If everyone can talk to Dallas or Ohio in <50ms they're probably going to have an OK time.
I really didn't see this coming. After 40 years of fibre I just thought we should roll this out across the globe as the solution to every home and we had data transmission solved and likely wouldn't need an upgrade until we found something substantially better, maybe quantum entanglement communication. Turns out it was improvable and now the insane amounts of fibre we have already deployed is now obsolete.
The currently installed fibre cables work just as well as they did a year ago. Calling them obsolete is a bit of stretch.
Besides, I think most homes are not even close to using the full capability of what fibre can offer nor do a lot of people need that extra bit of speed to browse Instagram/Facebook/YouTube/Whatever else.
An old computer and processor work just as well as they did when made but they are still obsolete because something better has been released. This does make all the fibre obsolete, doesn't make it useless but the replacement will reduce latency.
How does one splice a cable with such a complex geometry? Is that a solved problem already?
You probbaly need a specialised crew to do this and as such such fiber won't be installed in your own neighbourhood for your Fiber-to-the-Home connection anytime soon I guess. But, maybe in a few decades it will.
When such technology becomes practical for the large telco's it will be implemented soon as this saves on attenuation equipment.
UK, so what's the betting no one got a patent on this?!
All the hedge funds sniping orders right now lol
Low latency starlink orders on hold
[dead]